interview with swami kumaranandji

M : Mandaleshwar, means what
S: Mandal….mandal means an area , a region. I think they have divided India into 54 mandals, if I am not mistaken, or maybe just north India. So they get charge of a region. For example, my gurubhai, is in charge of HImgiri mandal… this covers Rishikesh, Hardwar, Gangotri, Kedarnath all these fall under Himgiri Mandal. They go by the old geographical nomenclature, you know when the kings were there,they all had their territory. Mandaleshwar is, you can say 21st century kings. To some extent, they serve the same function. In those days, the kings were the ones who funded the activities of the akhada.
M: The maha mandelshwar is for all akhadas or only for Juna Akhada.
S: He may be from Juna Akhada, but his services are provided for all sadhus belonging to the Akhada Parishad.
M : This would include Agni…..
S: Yes, all the akhadas, Avahan…any sadhus can come here, have food, stay here. So we have no such separation. The separation is only because of tradition and parampara. As far as practical day to day living is concerned there is no division/ separateness…. A sadhu is a sadhu. Just as to some extent you belong to a particular parampara, cause you have a guru lineage and you follow that particular path… that’s about it. We allow to follow any particular path in the akhada. We also have Kabir Path…
M: In the Jhuna Akhada
S: In the Akhada Parishad… we even have a mathi… out of the 52 Mathis we also have a mathi for the Buddhists. This is not new. It is called the Lama mathi. It was formed somewhere In the 9th century. Then we have Kabir Panth, which is mainly sufis. And we have a chota udasi akhada, which is for the Sikhs. It is not only for Hindus. Sanatan Dharma is pure Hindu. See there is no such word as Hinduism….ours is not a religion. The word religion came later..
M: Mmmmm… the british
S: The British, they had a religion. They had a religion, and they wanted to compare notes at the same level…..so they made this into a religion.thats about it. British always did that.
M: So the mathis are here also..they come to the Kumbh
S: We are all part of the Mathi…It is all in the book….mathi means like council. Every akhada has 52 mathis….same 52 mathis are penetrated into the akhada… it is very complicated system.for example we belong to the tera mathi of jhuna akhada… there is chauda mathi of jhuna akhada, there shola mathi of jhuna akhada, and there is chaar mathi (manhi???) of jhuna akhad………now char manhi means 4 manis…. 13 manis make one group, 16 manis make one group…
These 16 mathis will also be there in Niranjani akhada.will also be present in agni akhada. Each of these 13 mathis each of them have a name….a particular name. like ours is called ritinathi and the family tradition of the ritinati started …somewhere in Punjab….this lady here, her guru is the head of the riti nati, Karma Giri, like that there are 13 mathis grouped together, each having their own individual council. Then you have a riti nathi mathi in Niranjan akhada. Like that. SO in a way they are interconnected. Cannot say that they are separate. See. Like that.
What we know as Naga sadhus today were around at the time when Alexander the Great came to India. There is a writing called the…hmmm… the oriental indica…mmmm written by a writer who was present at that time with Alexander. A greek writer. He wrote about a fierce group of warriors that they had to encounter when they entered Gujerat. He called them the Sambhu warriers. Ash clad naked very fierce sum, full of unique powers. They were almost invisible, he writes. They could not defeat them. In fact Alexander the Great stopped his conquest when they met these group of sadhus. And he became more interested in their tradition…than to fight them….and he took 10 of them back with him to Greece. Aha. These were the Naga sadhus, what we call them today. They called them the Shambu warriers. So the records of the tradition were existing even then. So it must have existed before that. For sure.
We do not know exact dates because Indian History is lost in the wilderness, and got destroyed in the process of conquest, you know, by foreigners. However, we have what is known as the Shangam. These are a group of boys or young older men, they come and sing traditional poems. Actually they relate the story, something they carry around in their memory. Actually they have written books but they keep these for their own family. They come from tent to tent and they sing songs of the great glories of the Sambhu warriors and naga warriors. This battle how they fought, that battle how they fought. Like this sort of stories they have. From them , word of mouth, also we get history and facts of how the akhada sadhus were, say one thousand years ago. Then we have historians like the Chinese traveler who writes about his presence in the Kumbh mela. Mark Twain has written about the Kumbh.
M: I was told that the akhadas were set up by Shankaracharya. Is that correct?
S: Shankaracharya formalized it, he did not set up the whole thing, it evolved over the years, He his disciples, his predecessors. He formalized it, meaning the akhadas existed before him . It may not have had the formation that it has today> Even the formation that it has today evolved over time, as result of necessity. Because if you notice, it is a war formation. The mathis, they are all war formation, divided through areas. So they have an area which they cover. And they guard that area. Specifically they are trained to guard that specific area. This is how the mathis started.
So they ask you, which mathi , which pariwar. And you have to say which mathi which pariwar. From that we know what quality of naga you are. This is ancient time. Today, its all got mixed up. Today 21st century. In 200 years everything gets mixed up. But this is how it started. To some extent they maintained at least the name and to some extent the tradition also. You can ask, why? What economic purpose is there. Or what advantage is there for society.

Now in the absence of the so called symbols of tradition, what else is there. That is what kumbh mela is all about. To show to the public, what the ancient traditions in this country is all about. And to tell them, that you can live simple lives… no need to be sophisticated… for what. If it’s possible to live one month in a tent, you can live for a year in a tent… you can live your whole life in a tent… why..You need big land, big house…for what? Also to tell them t o simplify. So it’s a message to the people….. this is just one of many messages…about the tradition,.. and very resourcefully they have created these camps… a common process of working together is established….different sadhus come together..live under the same story. The kumbh mela is also about solving our differences…coming together under a common umbrella…everybody having a bath together..do pujas together to decide about greater issues… there are 52 mathis and 13 akhadas I think… it’s a huge family..there are lots of issues to cover, and these issues are covered during the mela, there are meetings, discussions…almost everyday they are having discussions..
M: These are like closed meetings????
S: Some are. Amongst the sadhus…but not public… relating to the running of the akhada
M: Would akhadas be a very spiritual tradition?
S: Spiritual? It depends on what you understand by the word spiritual.. The word spiritual, spirituality in the modern sense has taken a new meaning. In the olden times, what was meant by spiritual was what you get from the scriptures..the essence of the scriptures. Definitely that was the basis of the living, according to the scriptures…the essence of the scriptures…they were not just theories, talking about the scriptures. They lived a life according to the scriptures. Example, in the shaiva tradition, all the niyams are those that are in the Shiva Purana, the Vaishnovaites, according to the Vishnu Purana and the Bhagvatam. You need some guidelines and in those days, those were the guidelines. They are still applicable to some extent..some modifications were required…

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Tape 2

S: JUna Akhada main diety is Dattatriya..dattatriya is a combination of Shiva, Vishnu and Brahma. - the adhi Guru. We come from that lineage…we do not consider ourselves to be Shaivites or vaishnovaits…however, from the general sense, we would be categorized as Shaivites by the Vaishnovaites…because we worship Shiva…hmm..but we also worship Vishnu..you see… but because we predominantly have the trimudra (gesture with three fingers across the forehead), and because of the rudrakshas our dress (orange lungi) we would be categorized as Shaivites.
But I think the time has come for us to play down these differences, and to forge alliances… and right now that attempt is being made to achieve that state…right now as we speak …..Viashnovites and Shaivites they all will come together to form a Mahasangh
M: What about the old Devi tradition in all this
S: It still exists This particular tent is all Shaktas only…we don’t see those differences…the differences are there…as a means of choice for the devotee…not to create factions…no…that was not the purpose of these differences…the difference was to give you a choice…if your inclination is towards Shakti, you follow shakti. Even if you go some of Vaishnovite tents, they will be doing Naratri Puja…they may worship the Divine Mother in the form of Laksmi…but it’s still navratri puja….so there is room for all that mixture, there is a mixture…a very diversified and versatile approach..
M: Dynamic
S: Yes. Extremely dynamic
M: This for me was the interest in coming to Kumbh…because I do think there is any other event like it in the history of man
S: there is not…and they cannot its impossible
M: And it is not even created…. It is almost as if it is spontaneous
S: If you ask anybody any sadhu as to next week what is going to happen…he will not know…because there is no schedule…except for the baths… between the bath dates what is going to happen nobody knows…. Even the bathing days, the routes that the sadhus will take nobody knows………also of course for security reasons…to keep the crowds in suspense.they don’t want them to flock into the space and crowd up the road…..and also to keep the….. sanctity of the event… so the route is announced the night before the baths……so the correct word is spontaneous.kumb mela is spontaneous
M: Are the naga babas naga all the time, or only when they come here
S::They are naga babas all the time it depends on what you understand by the word, the term naga babas…do you mean that do they hang around naked all the time or do they follow tradition…. Tradition they always follow. Once you are a naga baba, you are always a naga baba…whether you choose to wear clothes or choose not to wear clothes…….that is a separate issue..Sometimes you don’t wear clothes because because you are alone. Sometimes you may wear clothes because you come into interaction with people. Because not everybody understands the path of a nagababa. Normally he doesn’t go for such situations. When he does, tradition has it that they are given a separate place... But those who do not know about this tradition, can’t give them this secluded place, then they have to mingle with the people. Then it is a bit uncomfortable for them (pointing away from himself) and also for himself because he has to eat in a separate place. He cannot eat in the same place as they do… because he has stripped himself from all those needs… he must sit on the floor, he cannot sit on the chair…sometimes they just carry a shell. And a lot of other niyams, which only people who are familiar with the tradition can do that…so most of the time they avoid such situations, in the public. This is the only time that you will see them in public. Otherwise they live away in their secluded spots, and not really in the village. People in the village know them only as naga babas. They never really take the trouble to find out what it is all about.
M: And the naga babas they don’t do rituals…
S: Not too much, they have renounced that…karma kanda has been renounced…we don’t say that it is wrong, and are against it. You come to a stage where you don’t need it anymore. Pujas are recommended for people who have some worldly issues, to solve them. Through their worldly issues, they come into unison with God. And once you achieve that state, then you realize that these worldly things are not necessary, and you go beyond….crossed it. You still respect it, you recognize the importance of it, but you don’t partake of it. If you do, you do it for others, not for yourself. Cause naga is someone who has renounced everything, his clothes, his status. He does not need anything., He does not exist
M: So would a naga baba be considered to have reached nirvana or….
S: I would say not all of them have reached nirvana . But all of them are on their way there.. a few may have reached, you don’t know who they are, they themselves may not know, because there is no proper definition of this word nirvana, they only talk about it, unless you have experienced it you do not… you don’t know what is nirvana….it’s just book knowledge. And for him, he does not care what the word means… he has reached the state where he does not need anything else anymore. If that is nirvana so be it…(smiles) yah (laughs)… otherwise it’s just a word.
Experience, each of them has a unique experience. If two guys are in nirvana, each of them will have their unique experience. Because as much as they are in nirvana, they are also very much in prakriti. They are involved in prakriti. So the detachment is from within. SO someone externally looking at them, cannot make out….because they see them as very much being in the world, eating and talking and joking and…you know…but internally very much detached. Unless you live with that person for months, for months on end, only then would you realize…aha, yes, this person is completely detached in one sitting it is impossible to know. If someone comes and says, oh I went there, I met that saint, I don’t think he is realized, that guy is talking rubbish. You can t know about a realized being in one sitting. If you can know that a realized soul in one sitting then you don’t need to sit there
M: you would be realized
S : yeh…you don’t have to wander from place to place…and why do you need to know if a person is realized or not… you feel good in his company, that’s all you need. Or if you meet someone who is realized you become realized immediately…no/// it takes time…everybody has their destiny, their path, their destiny, which they have to reach. So, I think this 21st century approach to spirituality, I won’t say, that it is the safest and surest approach. They are trying new techniques. These techniques, even Buddhism, the path, is considered relatively new. It’s not time tested. Most of them they reached the stage of Arahat. Till today, Buddhism has not produced another Buddha. I don’t see any other Buddha other than the first one. Why have they not succeeded… (Shrugs)…so from that we see that it is not really a proved path. It’s a path, but if you want to guarantee nirvana, you don’t know, whether it gets there. Because nobody else got there except the first Siddhartha, other than him, no one else has reached that stage. So is this path really time tested…we don’t know…question mark. But if you look at some of the ancient traditions, it is time tested, time and again, they have produced gyanis , time and again, they have produced gyanis…. it’s a proven path. Of course it’s got its positive and negatives… and that’s because people, modify change it, create some distortions in the practice and the teachings. It’s got nothing to do with the quality of truth itself. What the books speak of, that has not changed. It is the way tha